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 USA Bailout Welfare: Why Bailouts to Detroit are a Waste of Taxpayers' Earnings (karma: 8)
en>fr fr>en By PissNVinegar Comments: 5405, member since Tue Sep 19, 2006On Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:17 PM
Edited by PissNVinegar (79946) on 2008-11-18 23:52:28
Detroit, Mich. — General Motors is not competitive.
That is the conclusion, not of conservative D.C. critics or Wall Street investors, but of officers with the Detroit auto-parts suppliers who do business every day with America’s largest car company — and with its Japanese competitors.
It is an open secret in the Motor City that — even leaving aside its high labor costs, surplus of brands, and bloated dealer network — GM’s manufacturing culture is inefficient compared to foreign rivals Toyota and Honda.
November 18, 2008, 0:15 p.m.
Auto-Bailout Mechanics: Industry insiders say “burn them down and start over.”
By Henry Payne
Detroit, Mich. — General Motors is not competitive.
That is the conclusion, not of conservative D.C. critics or Wall Street investors, but of officers with the Detroit auto-parts suppliers who do business every day with America’s largest car company — and with its Japanese competitors.
It is an open secret in the Motor City that — even leaving aside its high labor costs, surplus of brands, and bloated dealer network — GM’s manufacturing culture is inefficient compared to foreign rivals Toyota and Honda. Conversations with numerous supplier reps confirm an antiquated Detroit culture that does not thoroughly engineer products before contracting production with suppliers. As a result, production runs for Detroit automakers like GM are frequently interrupted to change specifications. Those interruptions add costs — costs that Japanese manufacturers rarely incur. The problem is so prevalent that employees for JCI — major international supplier Johnson Controls, Inc. — often joke that their acronym stands for “Just Change It” because its American clients routinely run up unnecessary costs by altering production contracts.
Can a $25 billion taxpayer bailout help General Motors change its culture? “No,” says one supplier executive. “You have to burn them down and start over.”
But with Washington now in union-beholden Democratic hands, that scenario — bankruptcy — is not going to happen. In the current downturn, many financial experts predict that a GM bankruptcy would be a dicey scenario not just for the industrial heartland, but for the country as a whole — and so argue that Washington faces a Hobson’s choice as it considers a bailout for Detroit automakers. The question is when, not if.
But handing over $25 billion to U.S. automakers may be a short-term national benefit — but it would only draw out Detroit’s slow slide to failure, with no return on the public’s investment. On the other hand, not breaking the Detroit Three’s free-fall into bankruptcy (or some form of government receivership) might be painful for the nation in the short run, but would offer the best route to industry revival over the long haul.
Thirty years ago, the federal government successfully bailed out Chrysler Corp. But today’s landscape looks very different from that of the late 1970s. At that time, the Big Three’s Japanese competitors did not operate a single manufacturing facility in the U.S. Today, Japanese, German, and Korean manufacturers all operate plants here — employing 93,000 American workers from Kentucky to Alabama. In other words, a bailout for a Detroit company is no longer essential for maintaining America’s auto-manufacturing base.
This time the bailout’s focus is on GM, which is projected to exhaust its cash reserves by year’s end. [Ford’s cash — thanks to a shrewd mortgaging of company assets two years ago — will last into 2009. Chrysler is already assumed to be lost — as its owner, Wall Street equity firm Cerberus, is desperate to abandon the auto business.] GM argues that it has taken steps to become more competitive and that it only needs federal money to bridge the current, freak financial crisis so that its cost reforms can go into effect as scheduled in 2010. The company is correct up to a point.
Critics such as columnists Robert Samuelson and Charles Krauthammer are not entirely correct in saying that GM hourly labor costs are $25-per-hour higher ($73 v. $48) than their Japanese competitors. In fact, 2007’s historic, contentious labor pact provides for a “two-tier” wage scale that reduces employee costs to $55 per hour — within striking distance of non-union Japanese plants.
Striking distance isn’t enough, though, and industry analysts agree that GM must do more. But in its appeal to taxpayers for $25 billion, GM has arrogantly refused to provide a revised business plan in return for the money. Instead, it has played the fear card, arguing that withholding the funds will lead to a national depression. But GM’s excessive overhead costs demand explanation. [The UAW has also asserted that there will be no concessions on wages and benefits in return for a bailout.]
Writing for the Wall Street Journal, Michael Levine of NYU’s School of Law points out that GM and its chief competitor, Toyota, have nearly identical U.S. market share (20 percent for GM, 19 percent for Toyota). Yet GM has eight brands and Toyota only three. GM also had 7,000 dealers (due to state franchising laws) versus only 1,500 for Toyota. These problems cry out for restructuring, yet GM insists on postponing hard decisions hoping instead for an infusion of taxpayer booty.
Worse, federal cash will come with strings attached, thanks to a liberal Congress that wants to turn Detroit into ground zero in its battle against so-called global warming. The result would be Nancy Pelosi–imposed targets forcing automakers to make more high-mpg cars whether there is market demand for them or not. Absent structural reforms, mandating money-losing small cars would only hasten Detroit’s demise. Even left-wing New York Times reporter Keith Bradsher — author of the SUV-bashing book, High and Mighty — has documented how congressional fuel mandates have put Detroit at a competitive disadvantage ever since their inception in 1975.
Short of “burning them down,” then, what is the solution? A Democratic Washington has many in Detroit resigned to a bailout that will preserve the viability of their 401ks if not the American auto industry.
But if bankruptcy is out of the question, its government-ordained cousin — public receivership — has precedent. A receivership modeled after the airline stabilization board that helped rescue U.S. airlines in the aftermath of 9/11 could have the effect of both restructuring GM as well as assuring its survival after reorganization. Analysts from NYU’s Levine to former Wall Street Journal business editor Paul Ingrassia have endorsed this approach.
It would be painful, but it would also be the transformational moment that U.S. automakers have promised for far too long.
— Henry Payne is a writer and editorial cartoonist for the Detroit News. 35 Replies to Bailout Welfare: Why Bailouts to Detroit are a Waste of Taxpayers' Earnings | re: Bailout Welfare: Why Bailouts to Detroit are a Waste of Taxpayers' Earnings (karma: 1)
en>fr fr>en By A_Thinking_Man Comments: 15322, member since Fri May 16, 2003On Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:49 PM
Detroit can go fuck itself. It's a shithole that should be turned into a toxic waste dump. | re: Bailout Welfare: Why Bailouts to Detroit are a Waste of Taxpayers' Earnings (karma: 5)
en>fr fr>en By jagerdr Comments: 3078, member since Sun Dec 05, 2004On Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:53 PM
Those wonderful folks who brought us Pearl Harbor deserve our allegiance. The guys who built TBF Avengers like the ones used at Midway... they can go fuck off. See if that'll float with all the guys at the VFW. | re: Bailout Welfare: Why Bailouts to Detroit are a Waste of Taxpayers' Earnings (karma: 6)
en>fr fr>en By ProjectLily Comments: 3900, member since Mon Mar 21, 2005On Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:00 AM
jagerdr wrote:
Those wonderful folks who brought us Pearl Harbor deserve our allegiance. The guys who built TBF Avengers like the ones used at Midway... they can go fuck off. See if that'll float with all the guys at the VFW.
NO ONE wants to see the collapse of the domestic auto industry. But Detroit needs to deal with some very fundamental issues unless you want to be here six months from now having this same conversation.
Can you really say propping up Detroit to the advantage of the UAW is in our long-term national interests? What about having the government mandate Detroit make hybrids and compacts which they lose their ass on and nobody wants to buy anyway? Is that in our interests? | re: Bailout Welfare: Why Bailouts to Detroit are a Waste of Taxpayers' Earnings (karma: 4)
en>fr fr>en By PissNVinegar Comments: 5405, member since Tue Sep 19, 2006On Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:04 AM
I just wonder if someone would bail me out if I owned a business, and ran it miserably and did all the wrong things because it was a union shop that was also micromanaged by government regulations pandering to left-wingers? | re: Bailout Welfare: Why Bailouts to Detroit are a Waste of Taxpayers' Earnings (karma: 3)
en>fr fr>en By A_Thinking_Man Comments: 15322, member since Fri May 16, 2003On Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:06 AM
Those wonderful folks who brought us Pearl Harbor deserve our allegiance. The guys who built TBF Avengers like the ones used at Midway... they can go fuck off. See if that'll float with all the guys at the VFW.
The executives and workers that built the Avengers are dead.
You're defending the fuckheads that built the Pacer, Gremlin and Vega. | re: Bailout Welfare: Why Bailouts to Detroit are a Waste of Taxpayers' Earnings (karma: 4)
en>fr fr>en By syscom3 Comments: 3741, member since Sun Sep 05, 2004On Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:07 AM
jagerdr wrote:
Those wonderful folks who brought us Pearl Harbor deserve our allegiance. The guys who built TBF Avengers like the ones used at Midway... they can go fuck off. See if that'll float with all the guys at the VFW.
The war ended 63 years ago.
I dont think the guys in the VFW care anymore who builds the cars. | re: Bailout Welfare: Why Bailouts to Detroit are a Waste of Taxpayers' Earnings (karma: 1)
en>fr fr>en By scheisskugel Comments: 732, member since Wed Jul 23, 2003On Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:11 AM
PissNVinegar wrote:
I just wonder if someone would bail me out if I owned a business, and ran it miserably and did all the wrong things because it was a union shop that was also micromanaged by government regulations pandering to left-wingers?
Obama says, "Yes We Can!" | re: Bailout Welfare: Why Bailouts to Detroit are a Waste of Taxpayers' Earnings (karma: 3)
en>fr fr>en By PresidentChirac Comments: 2206, member since Sat Jul 16, 2005On Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:15 AM
Today's equation is:
Unions = Shit
There will be a test tomorrow. | re: Bailout Welfare: Why Bailouts to Detroit are a Waste of Taxpayers' Earnings (karma: 6)
en>fr fr>en By Bishopabc Comments: 3573, member since Fri May 27, 2005On Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:29 AM
I do agree that none of the US Three should be hailed out. That will be squashed by Hussein and Detroit will get their money.
I may have lived a few decades longer than some here on FF.com. There were no "bailouts" for Hudson, AMC, Nash, Keiser, Tucker, Woolworth's, Grants, Montgomery Ward, Two-Guys, Service Merchandising, Lafayette Radio Corp., A&P, ACME, Ames, Howard Johnson's, Burger Chef, Easter AA, TWA, Braniff, and you add to the list. This bailout crap is nonsense. Freddie Mac, nor Fanny Nae should have been bailed out.
People who can't afford to pay a mortgage should never have received one. Minorities were the biggest violators of not paying their mortgages. Look it up.
I will say this, my 2008 Chevy Malibu is one of the best cars I have ever owned. Anyone who owns one knows this is true. It is Motor Trends Car of the Year. I have friends with 2008 Honda Accord Sedans, or the Subaru Legacy Sedan and I would not trade them for their Japanese autos. I have one friend who went and traded in his Accord for a 2009 Malibu Sedan.
Mine is a V6, automatic, FWD, with everything but power seats. (I don't like them-just me)I even have cruise and a sun-roof.
But I still wouldn't bail the three out. Sad our big three could have, and still could be the best in the world. Fucking demon obligated Unions, along with a lot of other shit wrong with them. | re: Bailout Welfare: Why Bailouts to Detroit are a Waste of Taxpayers' Earnings (karma: 4)
en>fr fr>en By jagerdr Comments: 3078, member since Sun Dec 05, 2004On Wed Nov 19, 2008 01:19 AM
ProjectLily wrote:
NO ONE wants to see the collapse of the domestic auto industry. But Detroit needs to deal with some very fundamental issues unless you want to be here six months from now having this same conversation.
Can you really say propping up Detroit to the advantage of the UAW is in our long-term national interests? What about having the government mandate Detroit make hybrids and compacts which they lose their ass on and nobody wants to buy anyway? Is that in our interests?
I think that the USA needs a manufacturing base. We cannot maintain wealth by splicing digital bits, flipping burgers, and doctoring and lawyering. American capital and management needs to employ American labor to build things in the USA. I know, I'm a patriotic knuckle dragger.
I think that if GM does not get a bridge loan, it will be Chap 7 in 12 months. The ripple effect throughout our economy will be enormous. I also think that if GM isn't helped, they will cheer until they're hoarse in Tokyo and Berlin......because the stupid Americans have just shot themselves in the foot and saved those governments the need to bail out their auto companies.
The damn government can mandate the kinds of cars built anyway...what do you think CAFE standards and emissions standards and all that crap has done for years.
The foreign cars that are built here, are simply assembled here. All the high value parts come over on a boat - engines, drive trains, electronics, suspensions.... all imported. They do not employ US engineering....and in our economy 1 good mechanical or electrical engineer is worth more to GDP than 10 lawyers, maybe more. | re: Bailout Welfare: Why Bailouts to Detroit are a Waste of Taxpayers' Earnings (karma: 1)
en>fr fr>en By Snail_Bait Comments: 5975, member since Sat May 14, 2005On Wed Nov 19, 2008 01:58 AM
But we have change!
| re: Bailout Welfare: Why Bailouts to Detroit are a Waste of Taxpayers' Earnings (karma: 2)
en>fr fr>en By TexasRevolver Comments: 1505, member since Sat Dec 17, 2005On Wed Nov 19, 2008 02:36 AM
The Japanese junk assembled here will all close shop and go back to Japan or maybe Mexico if the big 3 are destroyed.They bring parts to California from Japan and simply truck them from Cali to the South and say they are "domestic parts". The only reason they assemble some cars here are to try to say they are "American". Its far more profitable to ship those cars from Japan working 16 hour shifts with unpaid overtime than to pay a southerner 12 bucks an hour. I know of people being injured on the job at Toyota being fired. They hire these temps on the cheap becuase so many people are desperate for low wages.
The Germans are bailing out their automakers. The Japanese would do the same if they where struggling. However dumb traitors are happily rejoycing the death of the Big Three.
I've had American cars all my life and I would never trade them for some Jap crap!
I guess alot of the idiots would prefer our military to drive jap crap small toyota trucks like the Taliban has instead of Hummers.
Just like how the traitors cheerleaded for Airbus over Boeing, the traitors prefer their gay Toyotas and hondas. I see new ones(lexus's and acuras) broken down all the time. | re: Bailout Welfare: Why Bailouts to Detroit are a Waste of Taxpayers' Earnings (karma: 3)
en>fr fr>en By TexasRevolver Comments: 1505, member since Sat Dec 17, 2005On Wed Nov 19, 2008 02:44 AM
I'm going to buy a Chevy Malibu. I test drove one, and its so smooth. Its like floating on a cloud. The Camry and Accord are complete junk compared to the Malibu. | re: Bailout Welfare: Why Bailouts to Detroit are a Waste of Taxpayers' Earnings en>fr fr>en By PresidentChirac Comments: 2206, member since Sat Jul 16, 2005On Wed Nov 19, 2008 02:49 AM
You are absolutely clueless, TexasRevolver. They cut their own throats and they deserve to die for their overt stupidity. There will still be American cars but they will be much better and still cost less. Union members should all have a $1,000 bounty on their sorry socialist ass. FUCK unions to death! | re: Bailout Welfare: Why Bailouts to Detroit are a Waste of Taxpayers' Earnings (karma: 1)
en>fr fr>en By TexasRevolver Comments: 1505, member since Sat Dec 17, 2005On Wed Nov 19, 2008 02:50 AM
Edited by TexasRevolver (78703) on 2008-11-19 02:55:21
| re: Bailout Welfare: Why Bailouts to Detroit are a Waste of Taxpayers' Earnings (karma: 2)
en>fr fr>en By TexasRevolver Comments: 1505, member since Sat Dec 17, 2005On Wed Nov 19, 2008 02:54 AM
Edited by TexasRevolver (78703) on 2008-11-19 02:59:38
bullshit chirac. The japs will close their plants. after there are no American cars left, theres no reason they will have any plants here. They will make them in mexico if they wont make em in Japan.
Toyota's recieved millions (if not a billion) in corporate welfare from American taxpayers.
133 million from Texas Taxpayers
323.9 million from Missippi Taxpayers
189 million from Hybrid subsidies
371 million from Kentucky Taxpayers
not to mention other corporate welfare they and other foriegn autmakers recieved. I dont hear any jap crap fans complaining about that interference in "free market" principles.
The lost tax revenue from the big 3 going down will cost much more than the 25 billion loan.
Apparently you need to grow a fucking brain, you moron! | re: Bailout Welfare: Why Bailouts to Detroit are a Waste of Taxpayers' Earnings (karma: 1)
en>fr fr>en By TexasRevolver Comments: 1505, member since Sat Dec 17, 2005On Wed Nov 19, 2008 03:03 AM
The morons who love Toyota wish our military would cruise in style like their muzzie heroes! | re: Bailout Welfare: Why Bailouts to Detroit are a Waste of Taxpayers' Earnings en>fr fr>en By Wulfrun Comments: 1244, member since Tue Jun 10, 2008On Wed Nov 19, 2008 03:06 AM
TexasRevolver wrote:
The Germans are bailing out their automakers.
Not correct: they're still discussing whether to do so, and there's as many against it as are for it. The linked article sets out the debate pretty well. Opel (100% GM) is the case in hand, but the debate is widening to take in the entire industry.
www.spiegel.de . . . | re: Bailout Welfare: Why Bailouts to Detroit are a Waste of Taxpayers' Earnings (karma: 1)
en>fr fr>en By TexasRevolver Comments: 1505, member since Sat Dec 17, 2005On Wed Nov 19, 2008 03:09 AM
They will bail them out. | re: Bailout Welfare: Why Bailouts to Detroit are a Waste of Taxpayers' Earnings en>fr fr>en By Wulfrun Comments: 1244, member since Tue Jun 10, 2008On Wed Nov 19, 2008 03:18 AM
That's probable (indeed it's nearly as probable as Detroit being bailed out). | re: Bailout Welfare: Why Bailouts to Detroit are a Waste of Taxpayers' Earnings en>fr fr>en By robert99 Comments: 3288, member since Thu Jun 02, 2005On Wed Nov 19, 2008 05:30 AM
I used to revel in the fact that GM was GM . Now I wish it would eat shit and die. Without a bailout. | re: Bailout Welfare: Why Bailouts to Detroit are a Waste of Taxpayers' Earnings (karma: 1)
en>fr fr>en By Chirac_estun_ver Comments: 13193, member since Sun Mar 30, 2003On Wed Nov 19, 2008 05:35 AM
I don't want any banks or major companies to fail but I don't want to bail them out either. So what's the solution to make everyone happy?
Taxes are not supposed to be collected for this purpose. We are at our limit. Please, enough! | re: Bailout Welfare: Why Bailouts to Detroit are a Waste of Taxpayers' Earnings en>fr fr>en By Chirac_estun_ver Comments: 13193, member since Sun Mar 30, 2003On Wed Nov 19, 2008 05:38 AM
TexasRevolver wrote:
I'm going to buy a Chevy Malibu. I test drove one, and its so smooth. Its like floating on a cloud. The Camry and Accord are complete junk compared to the Malibu. What's the solution, Tex? It would be great to keep the companies without more bail outs. Shoot, I want to stop the bank bail outs.
Can we have our cake and eat it too? Can we bail them out without us throwing money down a hole, never to be returned? I'm seriously stumped on this issue. | re: Bailout Welfare: Why Bailouts to Detroit are a Waste of Taxpayers' Earnings en>fr fr>en By govgirl Comments: 795, member since Wed May 09, 2007On Wed Nov 19, 2008 05:39 AM
i feel like my tax dollar will pay for someone's health insurance that retired years ago, i pay out of pocket for mine. |
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